Food and Wine in Utopia: Interview 4 (Vineyard Laborers)

Foreword

                In this interview series about Food and Wine in Utopia, I interviewed two vineyard workers in Santa Barbara County. Their identity are kept anonymous, and are differentiated in their response as italics(Person A) and italics underlined (Person B). An appropriate book to read along this is Migration as Economic Imperialism: How International Labour Mobility Undermines Economic Development in Poor Countries by Immanuel Ness, professor of Political Science at the City University of New York.  

 

How long have you been working in vineyards? Do you want to keep working in vineyards in the long term? And if you know you want to keep working long term in the vineyard, what keeps you wanting to work here? Is it money? Is it because you think you're contributing something to the economy or to the wine-growing region?

I have 7 years working in the vineyard. I started with the tractor driver. Then the crew foreman. And then I’m working tractor drivers one year. And second year, my supervisor told me he need help with crew leader.

Do you want to keep working at vineyards until retirement? What keeps you wanting to work in vineyards?

I like the vineyard. I like my work and the all. I enjoy my work. I enjoy the hours, the work.

Do you feel important for the work you do?

Yeah.

(Now directing the question to the second subject, whose response will be in italics and underlined), How long have you been working?

I've been working around nine years. When I started, I started as a crew member in the field. Over the time, I worked with supervisors and foremen, they offered me positions out of the crew and started my way up the ladder.

Yeah. Do I like my job? Yes. Right now I'm not 100% in the vineyard, but as a mechanic at other times. I would say I'm essential because there's always machinery breaking down and someone has to fix it.

Do you want to work in the vineyard long term?

Yeah. There's always something breaking down in my area of mechanics.

Do you think you want to stay here because of your value of your importance, or do you think it's because it's good job security or …?

I feel both job security and also value at the same time because in my point of view, job security is important but I mean, if you're not valued and there's always push down, I mean, I mean I'd rather, go out to other place.

Out of your experiences working in vineyards and observing and talking with other people who work in vineyards, do you think there are problems within the wine industry? Do you think there are problems in the vineyard industry in general? And if you do think so, what's the biggest problem and what's the biggest problem that impacts you?

In my case, I would say communication. Yeah, in my zone.

Not at work though. In the industry. Is it low wages, etc.?

That's a factor. I mean, because everything's getting pricey. In my criteria I would just say the pay rate. Yeah, the payrate because everything is expensive here in California. Everything is so expensive.

Is this the biggest problem that impacts you as well? Some would say, for example, we don't give enough health attention to vineyard workers. There's not enough health clinics. There’s no support for people with kids.

I don't know if it's a big problem, but (person B) knows that we have, all the time, complaints from the crews, you know. With the people … *trouble formulating cohesive English sentence*

I know where he's going at. So what he's trying to say is that in his shoes, he has to be more capable because the people are always complaining about certain things like if, for example, if the restrooms are far, “hey, why are they so far?”

So people nowadays tend to complain for no reason other than just to get something. They’re looking just to get a good lawsuit.

So in his shoes, he’s saying that he has to be really cautious. What he says, what he does, because he's always on the mic. Or in the spotlight.

Do you think these concerns are …. If you were in their shoes, would you ask the same requests?

I think no. Because I’m working in different ranch or vineyard before. There, we work very different. Very different.

*speaks in Spanish to person B*

So he's just saying that where he used to work there is (just the way things worked).

People that were above him, who moved him around were (more merciless). Hey, you know, that … That, I even got to see that too. Back then there were less rules. And back then if you didn't do a certain job or a certain way, (they’d say), “Hey, you want to do this? Go get your check. Get out of here. See you.”

And now, these days, there’s more rules modified. You can’t really do that anymore.

There are rules here too. Rules to protect a lot of workers as well. To protect their (well-being). Like breaks, which you were talking about earlier.

Yeah, that’s a plus. I agree with that.

We’re going to talk about something different. We’re going to talk about machines.

In the utopian society, do you think there'll be more machines working in vineyards, or do you think there'll be more humans working in vineyards? And do you think you can tell the quality difference between machines and (humans).

I would say more machines. Quality? I don't think it would be the same as in quality, but in quantity I would say it will be more.

But why do you think we need more machines in the utopian society? But in a perfect world and perfect utopian society, why would there be more machines?

Less hassle with crews.

This then leads to the question of do you think within the perfect world we get to do more things we want to do instead of picking grapes for like 8 hours straight? Maybe we’d rather be spending our time in a perfect world, like on the beach with our family.

For me, I think it's more better now because we work in only eight hours. Yeah, and the before when I started the vineyard. It’s ten hours. You know, we need to start 6am, then we finish the day at 4pm or 5pm. It’s late.

So do you think we'll have more machines in the future?

I think it’s fine. It’s 50%.

I mean, if they (the ranch owners) buy more machines, we’re not working.

Exactly. So you have to think along the lines of maybe we don't need to work long hours in a perfect world. Maybe we don't have to work 40 hours a week. Maybe just 20 hours a week and we still get a lot of money and we still (live).

Yes, so this is what anonymous (who works in HR of the vineyard company) told us last month, I think. I don’t remember, something about going to 35 or 32 hours/week.

Do you get paid more?

I think so but I think it’s bad.

Well, don't think as a vineyard worker right now. Think as somebody in the government. Do you think in the utopian society there will be more or less vineyards? Because right now you see the quality of fruit, quality of wine, and how they're different. We also have a lot of vineyards in California. Are we using our land correctly? Like should we be growing more food for our community instead of growing grapes? Or is it OK as it is?

Do you think we're using too much land for cow grazing? Too much land for vineyards and not enough for housing because we always need to find a lot more housing here. It's too expensive in certain areas.

Maybe vineyards? Maybe we use a lot of water. Is that a problem? So in the future do you want more or less vineyards?

I want to say we're good as how it is.

I think we will need more vineyards.

Why more vineyards?

I know there are people in other ranches that are planting more vineyards. But I think we need more vineyards because there’s a lot of people who need work.

But the problem is that in some place the people don’t want to work. *laughs*

But why do people want to work more? Why do more people need work?

Is it because they need more money?

No, they have the help with the … *starts speaking Spanish with Person B*

So he's saying he's saying that people that don't want to work. Most of these type have a lot of government assistance. And that's why they don't want to work that much because if they do, and if (the labor evidence) comes in their paycheck or they make more, they get less government help. So that's why mostly people just stay low. Don't want to work more in fear of losing their check every month.

So in the future, do you still want government assistance for people who don’t want to work as well?

I think so.

They still need it?

Yes.

One problem right now in our current situation, a well-known problem in our wine world right now … France, Australia are ripping up a lot of their vineyards, at least millions of vines. It is because nobody's drinking wine anymore.

*Surprised* France? They don’t drink more wine?

No. Also here (in California).

You’re thinking right now of vineyards as a source of income, source of jobs. But if we can't sell wine then those vineyards that you want more of aren’t going to be used. Like they're going to be left to grow (i.e. abandoned) or they're going to ripped out. So I want you to think about that.

What do you think is the problem that makes many people rip out the vineyard?

Because there's not enough wine sale.

Yeah, I know, but do you think the people …. *starts speaking in Spanish to Person B*

He's saying that what could be impacting this is the new generation they’re not drinking wine. And the whole generation, the baby boomers and others it’s just either cannabis or beer. But not wine. But the people who consume more wine, it’s the people from back in the day but they’re passing away now.

Do you guys drink wine at home? Do you drink wine that you buy, or do you drink what's free (or given to you) at home? Do you buy wine?

I buy but not frequently. I’ll buy it for certain events.

Me too.

Which do you spend more in a year? Beer or wine?

Beer.

I would say wine. I’m not a beer guy.

So this is a thing in the perfect future: we can't tell people what to drink. It's personal choice. You’re hoping that in the future, more people will like wine again.

But have you guys had really bad wine before? Really cheap bad wine?

In the perfect future, do you still want a range of wines from bad to really good? Because the companies (that make really bad wines) have a lot of vineyards. And they’re also using the machines we’ve been talking about.  

So in the future do you want less bad wine, or do you want the same (amount)?

I would say more good wines because it pays more. I mean thinking as an employee, I mean it pays more. And for cheap wine, you're not going to get hired and you're just going to get replaced by machines.

I’d still want both (bad wines and good wines).

The next question is going to be about immigration. Do you have papeles[1]?

Me? No.

How about you?

Yes, I am a US citizen.

Have you encountered other people with no papeles here in the vineyards?

Yeah, I would say. I would say 98~99%. I mean a crew out of 10 or 15 people. Just one has good paper.

Why do these people come here to search for a better life. Obviously, life back there or back home isn't as good as what they should be. And it's because of many different reasons. It could be because America has trade imbalances. They will pay people in Mexico really cheap to make cheap products and then they import it back to America without taxes or tariffs. Then America takes all of that benefit through paying Mexico nothing or something like that. Or even Honduras or Dominican Republic. It's the same question. Just so that America can outsource their cheap production. It's a problem as well. But it's also fueling a lot of immigration movement towards here, with them searching for better life, better pay.

What do you think immigration and labor will look like in a perfect world? Every country has their own strong economy, or do you think there's not going to be any borders anymore?

The people who are illegal now, do you think in a perfect world they would still stay where they are, stay in their family, stay where they grew up, work there, still get a great amount of pay?

Or do you think they'll still want to move around? And if your perfect universe does not account for immigration labor coming in, who do you think will work in the vineyards then?

I think the 50% won’t move. It’s because over here, cost of living is expensive. But over there, it’s easier. But there’s no money.

I would say the same, 50%. If their wages are better in their countries where they’re at, I don’t think they’ll want to leave. If the immigrants here already have a “status”, or a family, I don’t think they’ll want to go back.

Like DACA?

Yes. If you've really lived here, you already have a lifestyle. Your life is here and going back to your (another) country. It’s a whole different lifestyle. It's another culture. I mean, I think it would be difficult.

In your scenario, you've just lost 50% of your labor for vineyards here in California in this perfect future. How do you think that 50% is going to be compensated? More machines? Or is it more local workers?

No, I would say it's what they're doing right now, in my opinion. I think they would hire more contracted people from out of the US. That’s what they’re doing right now.

So is this your perfect utopia?

If we're short on labor, I would say that would happen. That would be like Plan B.

Or this could be another scenario. Just keep in mind that there is 50% loss of people, loss of labor. So that means 50% less vineyards, that means 50% less wine.

Do you think that is a sustainable way to live right now? 50% less wine. Think about all the wine bottles you see everywhere from grocery stores to wineries.

It’ll be bad.

It’ll be bad for whom?

In my opinion, I would say for the crew. Because if you had a crew of 20 people. You’d have to cut them down.

But you said in the perfect world, 50% of that labor force will stay there (in their home country). So now you have just enough people to take care of half the vineyards.

                *more deliberation among interviewer and persons A and B*

Right. So we don't know. You're saying you don't know how it's going to work out.

Yeah, that’s it.

If 50% of those people are staying back where they come from. Do you think that there will be more transfer of knowledge of the vineyard? Knowledge of vineyard care transferred back to where people have come from as well? So do you think we'll see more vineyards in those regions?

Or do you think that maybe vineyard working wasn't their passion. So they're going to go into other work or other industries. I'm asking how many people will come here because they're passionate about vineyard working or have they only come here because they really needed the money. Which one is it?

The majority of people, I would say they just need the money. It’s rare that the people coming here have the passion. I mean, they're just looking for a paycheck and the work in other places. I mean, work is just seasonal. So it's kind of hard to maintain the same people. They’ll say, “OK, I've worked here for eight months. What am I going to do the other four?”. They're not going to stay at home and wait for your call.

Now we come here, when somebody comes here, we want to work whatever. Trucking, trash, bathroom, etc.

I know. But in a perfect world, you don't have to do that for money. In the perfect world, you're doing what you already want to do. And you already have the money, and now you're chasing after your passions. So obviously you guys have passion working with vineyards. Now we're going to talk about education. So people like me, we have a Master’s degree or doctor's degrees from a fancy university for vineyard care.

And we always end up being higher up in the vineyard care companies. In a perfect world, how do you think education should shape the way workers who are passionate? Do you think they should be provided for free? Or do you think it should be provided at a fraction of the cost?

Do you even want to go to higher education to learn more about vineyard care? Now we're also thinking about education for people that work just for money. Do you think if we give them education, they will get more interested in it? Will they get more passionate? Does knowledge feed passion or passion feeds knowledge? Which one do you think it is?

The first question is, if you were given the chance to get higher education in vineyard care or viticulture, would you guys take that opportunity?

In my case, if I had the opportunity, I would say Yes.

Alright, but you’re also doing mechanical work. So for higher education, would you want to do both mechanical work and viticulture? Or do you want to focus on one?

I would do both. I would do both.

You want to get higher education. Do you want this education to be free, or do you think for the benefit of the economy, you only pay part of it?

In a perfect world, I would say free.

How about the general workers right now who are only in it for the pay? Do you think in a perfect world, education should also be offered to them? Or even given the choice?

Hypothetically in a perfect world, even if we had the program that said, “OK, whoever wants to sign up for this gets free education”. Do you think that's a good enough program?

Yeah, I mean that's a good program and that will be up to every individual. If they have the time.

*person B talks to person A in Spanish*

So he (Person A) is just saying that people are driven by passion. People that are passionate about their jobs, they would sign up and the people that are just coming from the pay check, they'll just skip.

Do you want education?

Si, I would like to do application (of education in real world).

So now we're going to go back to pay because the biggest problem for you right now is wages. Maybe it's too low and you live in an expensive place (California). What are your thoughts in the perfect world? What are the wages going to look like to you? Maybe in the perfect world the wages remain low, but everything else (that costs money) also remains low. Housing could be free? Food maybe could be free or very cheap? Maybe we don't use car transportation so much. In a perfect world, maybe trains are dropping people off.

Well, sounds like LA to me.

Right. So in the perfect world. Do you think there will be wages? Do you think people are still paid wages? Do you think everybody gets paid the same or do you think people are still paid like they are right now based on experience and so forth?  How about especially vineyards? What do you think the perfect wage would look like? Don't give me numbers. Tell me wages enough to cover what? What should be free in a perfect world?

I would say rent should be free. Food and utilities (should be) affordable. And wages enough to make a savings. Have savings for when I retire. To buy a house.

So in this perfect world, rent is free but houses cost money. So, it could give people a head-start or some (financial) help to get a head start on saving if you want to have a family, a house (in the future).

Yes.

How about you?

The rent? You know it needs to go down. A lot of the money that we obtain in the month goes toward rent. I have bills. I have my car, my insurance, I need to send money back to my family.

How about food?

Oh, the food is expensive.

You both said cars are still a thing you have to take care of in a perfect world. In the perfect world, we're still driving the same amount of cars? Or do you think there will be better public transportation between towns or cities?

I would say better transportation.

And if you had public transportation to come to work, would you use public transportation?

I would. I would.

For work I can use public transportation, but for personal, I would like my own truck.

We said food should be cheaper. Usually when we talk about food, people also think about the cost of drinks as well. Do you think in the future, price of wine will stay the same or do you think it should be cheaper? Do you want everybody to have a chance to taste high quality wine and what do you think the price of those wines should be? Do you think it should be cheaper than it is now? Do you think the overall price of wine should be cheaper?

Probably cheaper.

Cheaper. I mean if everybody is earning about the minimum, I would say yes, the wines can be more accessible.

And do you think if we made it more accessible, that we would get more people to drink and maybe we'll rip out less vineyards?

Yes.

*person A talks to person B in Spanish*

So he's saying that since he's not a strong consumer of wine. It doesn't really matter to him if it goes up or lower. For him, it's preferred that the price goes higher. That way, it doesn't affect his wage.

Do you think beer should be cheaper?

*Enthusiastically* Yeah.

Do you want to work less hours so that you have more time to yourself but still have the right amount of wages to keep up with everything such as food and savings?

But the thing is, even if that’s great for you, the vineyard still needs more work, so that means we need more workers to follow up. We would need more people in this scenario. But overall, everybody works less hours. Do you think this is a possibility?

Or what do you think the working hours will look like in a utopian society?

In my personal opinion, I would say 8 hours is good for me. I have worked worse hours.

You have kids now. Do you think in the future you want to spend more time with them as they're growing older?

I think 8 hours has been enough because I have Sunday. I have Saturday and Sundays to be with them.

You know, I think we are fine working 8 hours day, five days per week. Probably in the future we will only work 32 hours.

Do you want 32?

No, I don't want it. I want 50 hours if possible.

So right now, are you ok with your work life balance?

I'm OK with it.

From here (right now) to get to this perfect future. What is the one biggest obstacle to get over there? To get to Utopia, we must talk about many governmental agencies talking with each other, maybe economic changes. Maybe we tell companies to slow down producing.

Take cars for example. You have to tell them to stop producing cars. We have to start producing more public transportation. Food has to be cheaper. Everybody has to pitch in their fair amount of work, help growing the food. It's really complicated to get there. But what do you think is the biggest wall, the biggest obstacle to get there?

To me, (utopia) is way too far.

What is the first obstacle?

The first obstacle I would say is money.

Money for you or money for the whole perfect world?

Well, everybody wants money. Yeah, but I wouldn't save money for the whole perfect world. That way, no one has to go through situations. I mean, everybody can pay off (their debts) or buy their own stuff.

I think that's it (the utopia) too far. We need more money. You know the money moves the months?

So there’s a saying in Spanish. El dinero mueve montañas[2]. We don't have enough.

Well today and yesterday, the Dow Jones, which is the stock market index in Wall Street, posted their highest earnings in the past 20 years. (This statement is inaccurate since it’s an index, and not necessarily the earnings or profits of the companies per se).

In the meantime, ever since COVID, the number of billionaires have risen and also their wealth has also risen sharply compared to the rest of us. 

There is money. The question is do you think that's still enough money if we use those? Or do you think those people have earned their money and that that should be the way?

*person A speaks to person B in Spanish*

In his opinion he is saying that pretty much sharing the money, from billionaires or millionaires would be the way. And that they have roncha[3]. They call that when someone has greed. Yeah. When someone has the money. They have bank.

You send money to your family because you don't have roncha.  You're sharing the money with your family. Do you think if you got really rich that you would also start sharing with people that are not your family? Maybe your community or your friends? How far do you want to share that wealth?

I would say I would also want to share the money with the community or most in need. Like clinics, schools, youth centers to keep kids out of all that bad stuff. Because then eventually if I was a billionaire or millionaire, I’m going to die anyways. I’m just not going to get buried with that money.

 

End of interview

As we all walk out, we’re walking in between woods. Person A jokes that we don’t need money. He looks at the peaceful nature around us and says “This is my utopia. Our utopia.”